Cecile Demailly comes to the Swamp to share insights from her book “The Middle Manager’s Survival Guide.” Cecile spent almost twenty years as one of those “middles” in global organizations. She brings her lessons learned from that world and adds fifteen years of experience helping the middle manager community as a consultant. Her ideas are practical, accessible and can be used for managing in the business world and as well as the world of life, family and community.
I want to thank my great team that helps me sound better than I am.
- Jacki Hydock for her lending her wonderful voice to our introduction and outro
- Great music by Jazz Night
- Awesome episode production by the great team of We Edit Podcasts all the way up in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Check them out at www.weeditpodcasts.com
Thanks For Listening and Jumping into the Swamp
[00:00:05] ANNOUNCER: You are listening to 10,000 Swamp Leaders, leadership conversations that explore adapting and thriving in a complex world, with Rick Torseth and guests.
[00:00:19] RT: Hi, everybody. This is Rick Torseth, and this is 10,000 Swamp Leaders. This is the podcast where we talk with people who raised their hand and made a choice to lead, to address some complex and challenging problems, or what we call here swamp issues.
Today, I have – I say this, I think, on every episode, Cecile, but I’m really – this one’s really true. I have the honor, privilege, and joy to have a conversation with a good friend of mine, Cecile Demailly, who lives in Paris. Cecile and I share a common educational background through Oxford [inaudible 00:00:56]. We’ve been friends for quite a while, and Cecile is somebody that I hold in high regard professionally and personally, based on her experience in this world that we discuss on the podcast.
She has a new book out, which we’re going to dig into in a minute, called The Middle Manager’s Survival Guide. She is somebody who probably knows what she’s talking about in this conversation. She spent, I make it, Cecile, about 16 years at IBM and AT&T. Then you found freedom, and you took off on your own, and you are the Founder of Early Strategies. You’re an executive coach, you’re a corporate transformation consultant, and you’re a leadership companion. I’m going to dig into that one, but I want to find out what that is before we get off the call here.
So first of all, welcome to the swamp, Cecile. It’s good to have you here finally.
[00:01:47] CM: Thank you very much, Rick.
[00:01:49] RT: So let me just – before you go, you just tell people what you want to know about you before we get into anything we think is important here because you got some good stuff that I think it’s important for people to know who you are.
[00:02:02] CM: Okay. So I’m a mom of three children. I’m a grandmother of three grandchildren, very young. But this is making my life very full of laughs and new ideas and new discoveries. On a professional viewpoint, as you say, that I have been a corporate person for some 20 years; IBM, AT&T, and a very short 13 months in GE. So American companies, I have been very influenced by management, by objectives in the transparency and the ability to work with the hierarchy without barriers because I was in international environments and in American companies or multinational companies, I would say.
Then in 2008, I changed from the very, very big organization, hundreds of thousands of employees to my self-organization. That was a big move but very interesting. At that time, I met you because I went back to school to learn more about complexity, organizational transformation, which is kind of patient for me as systemic and things like that. I became a coach also because coaching is one of the way to help organizational change.
I have to say I’m passionate about my work, the work I’m doing now. I also like to write since I was very young. So I had the opportunity to write that book that you mentioned, The Middle Manager’s Survival Guide. That’s another different adventure but another adventure, very full of discovery, full of our process of self-clarifying my own opinions and my own tools about organizational change, and how to act into organization, and how to help people to improve their organization, their relationships, their careers, many things like that.
[00:04:13] RT: So let’s start a little bit because the book is brand new. Let’s give it its full title, The Middle Managers Survival Guide: 55 TOOLS and METHODS for steering clear of traps and navigating effectively in an increasingly challenging environment. Boy, is that not the truth? So I’m curious, from your perspective, returning as a coach and a consultant to these organizations after having lived in the world that you’re entering back into as a consultant, what’s going on for you that caused you to write the book now? Why now? What do you seen or what came together for you that said this world needs this book and some things that I’m learning? What are you seeing out there?
[00:04:58] CM: It’s a long process. I would not say just the idea popping up into my mind that they, that our. It’s rather a long process. As I mentioned, I’ve always been writing since I am, I don’t know, something like 11 years old or even before. When I was an organization, I used to write. When I was a marketing director, so when you’re like a marketing director, you write for a customer for them to understand what your company is doing. So you write having in mind the issues of the customers. You have an audience to say.
Then when I moved into my own business of consulting and coaching, I started writing for blogs, for newspapers. So I published not very often but because, yes, you need to find time. It’s not a – writing an article takes at least half a day or up to one day and a half. So you need to find time. I’ve been writing many, many things on issues that were of interest for me. Then I had what you call the writer’s block. So nothing could get out. I had many ideas of book, and I think I pushed too hard on writing a book and saying this is now – I need to do it now.
I’ve been in that work of consulting for complex organizations into why now. This is the good time just to pass what I’ve been learning and what I believe in, let’s say. Then I had that writer’s block that fetches the opposite of what I wanted. I hired a coach who was one of my teacher in neuroscience, and he also was a book author. So he made me work, and he just told me, “Just right every morning for one hour minimum and four pages minimum.” So I did that for a while. After a while, I look at what they produced and try to find kind of a backbone or something like that.
There was a piece of articles about everything about writing to my father who passed away, writing about my business, writing about the coaching session I had in the day, and blah, blah, blah. Something was very clear is that on at least half of the articles of piece of text I’ve been writing, it was speaking about living in organization, being leaders in organization and middle management. So I put all that together. I was thinking, okay, there’s something there. There’s really kind of a common theme.
I spoke to another friend who has been publishing books about crisis management and audits and things like that. He’s a very technical writer. I told him, “What do you think?” He told me, “Well, there’s something. Let me introduce you to my editor, to my publisher.” That was the beginning of the publishing story, and the publisher made me first write a proposal. Then I had to rewrite the proposal for time with his insight and his advice. So that there’s a book that works, both from publisher viewpoint and from my viewpoint, which was how can I help middle managers in organization when they don’t have the opportunity to hire a coach.
So basically, it’s book of self-coaching was what I – the kind of tools I use in coaching but simplified and written in a way that anyone reading them can use them on his or her own.
[00:08:55] RT: Okay. Before we get into some of the specifics that you write about and your thoughts on, I want to get into the conversation your view, at least, what you think the difference is between leading and managing. Because I think we mash those together a lot, and they are different. So from your perspective and your experience, both inside and now as an advisor from the outside, what are the things that mark out leading, and what are the attributes that mark out managing?
[00:09:29] CM: Okay. Just to say, there’s no clear frontier. Most of the time, it’s blurred. I have to say. But the managing is more of a technical side where in most organizations, you have rules. You have a hierarchy. You have responsibles. You have job descriptions, yearly objectives. So you have to follow the rules. There’s a management process kind of.
While in leading, you like to – this word swamp. You’re in the swamp somehow. So leading is more about influencing, about having understanding the big picture, about strategizing. When you’re a leader, we talk about managing across and managing up. Also, you can even manage your manager. So you can be a leader without being a manager. You can be a manager without being a leader. But it’s very powerful to be both the manager and the leader.
[00:10:41] RT: There’s two things I’m thinking about here, but let’s put this piece in before we get too far down the road. Given all of that, what has, from your perspective, been the additional consequence to managers and leaders post-COVID, when we now have decided that people can work remotely more often than they ever would have before, and the whole way in which work gets done nowadays is different than it was pre-COVID? So what’s the implication for somebody who’s managing who now has people, maybe some in the office, some at home, rotating around, traveling all around the world? What do you see in there that is an additional layer of challenge if there is one or this world that we now inhabit?
[00:11:26] CM: Yes. There’s definitely additional layers of challenges. But it can be very different because depending on the activity, you have activities that can be done remotely and some that cannot. In organizations where the activity had to be done in-person, in-house, it was much more difficult because the little part that was possible to be done remote created a huge challenge because people were not used to manage this way. For example, we’ve been working with companies, multinational companies, where people did not have the necessary computers, webcam, and so on. So it made everything difficult.
Also, from a management viewpoint, some company have a culture where the manager is controlling what the employee or the team member is doing. Controlling from distance was very complicated to understand. Now, people have evolved, and I think most of the companies have understood maybe not the interest, but at least that working remote is possible, that distant working is possible.
I have two kinds of client, basically. I have clients where the company – nobody wants to come back in the office, and they are struggling to get the people back in the office, at least once a week for a team meeting, for example, or just to touch base and continue to have good relationships together because it’s nice to be face to face from time to time. I have the opposite consulting company, for example, inside Paris, in big cities, who don’t want to work remote because they already have business obligation to be in the customer meetings and offices. They want to be together as much as possible for the rest of the time.
What it has changed, what COVID has changed is that, at least, and I’m crossing fingers saying that, that most of us now, of my clients now, have the good computers, the good webcams, and the good network to be able to work remote. This is one thing. But I think it has changed the way people see priorities on how they can improve relationship or at least maintain good relationship, whether with colleagues or customers or client partners, whatever. People think into that now better. They have a better understanding, but they also have that paradox of what is the pure priority of my life.
Many people have been – who were lucky to have a quiet area for working remote during the COVID, it made them want more of that. So there’s kind of a dichotomy between making sure I have good relationship with colleagues and management and clients and partners and whatever. So seeing them face to face and sitting next to them. Okay, I like to work, have a view on my garden or on the seaside, and have a quiet area and a slow pace and not too much noise around or people around. No excitement around. So there’s kind of, yes, a polarity. A new polarity management, I would say.
[00:15:17] RT: It’s so interesting you say this. For people who are listening, I am with my wife. We’ve been living in Portugal for a couple of months now. On Sunday, we were – Theresa, my wife, has a friend who was here for a week. So we are out and about, and we are on the coast and a big lot of surfing around Portugal right now. We happened on this place that was just buzzing with excitement of surfers and restaurants and stuff.
I ended up in a conversation with a young woman who is from Berlin. She has been working remote since COVID happened. She showed me her van, which she’s built a desk into and what were two-and-a-half years into and out of COVID. She’s been back to Berlin three times for some very specific corporate meetings. In the meanwhile, she’s surfing, working online. She just laughed, and she said, “I’m never going back.” I thought –
[00:16:12] CM: Yes. This is a magic story.
[00:16:14] RT: Yes. It’s really quite fascinating. So I like to get into some stuff you talked about in your book. You identify eight middle manager syndromes. I had to look up syndrome because I thought, “I think I know what syndrome means.” But when I looked it up, I thought, “Whoa.” This is the definition I found, a set of symptoms or conditions that occur together and suggest the presence of a certain disease or an increased chance of developing a disease.
So when you’re talking syndromes for middle managers, give people a little context about how that came across to you and what you’ve picked up there. What are some of the syndromes that you see that you think should be top of mind for managers as they navigate this world of managing?
[00:17:00] CM: Well, I have to say that, to me, a syndrome, just to simplify my – because you gave a very medical definition, which is true, by the way. But in my mind, syndromes are the circumstances and the context that makes you freeze into a thinking or a behavior. It’s very hard to get out of it because the context is very strong and the circumstances. Whatever happens is very important.
Just to give you an example when it’s one-on-one because I’ve seen it around me many, many times. When a company fire some people, whatever the reason is, the one who stay have the survivor’s syndrome. They feel guilty that the other, their colleagues, their friends sometime, have been fired and not them. Whatever the reason is, it’s unfair for them, but it’s a bit hard to get out of it.
This is my definition of a syndrome. This basic definition of a syndrome. Yes, I’ve seen them around me. This part of this chapter is really written from experience of my life before being a coach and a consultant, when I was a multinational marketing director. I’ve seen them around me in many, many occasions. I see them now when I’m coaching again and again.
[00:18:42] RT: So name a few syndromes because you have eight of them. So what are some examples of the kinds of syndromes that you’re referring to that that managers are challenged by?
[00:18:51] CM: The name of the syndromes, so let me read them. The middle child, so this is definitely what middle manager are. They are not the grown up. The first child, they are not the last child. They prefer they are in the middle. They are supposed to raise themselves by their own because their parents were looking after the oldest child. They are very interested in the third one who is the baby and so on. But the middle child is, okay, left on its own and has to find his own solutions and so on.
That happens a lot for middle manager in organizations. The one-man band when you’re a middle manager, you have to know everything. You have to be a manager, a leader. You have to be an expert in whatever activity your team members are in. You have to understand what the CEO is thinking and his management committee. You have to know the entire organization because whatever decision you make on how to implement strategy will impact a big bench of the organization and so on. So you have to be a one-man band, savior. That happens a lot.
You’re also responsible of people. So you often feel that you are here to protect them, but also to protect the organization and to save the organization. You know as much as I knew that organization have – are not humans. They don’t function the same way as we function. So it’s a bit – how to say that? A lost challenge from the beginning.
You have other that’s very individualistic people. This is another side of the organization because they are depersonalized, leave room for people with big ego. You find them here and there in organization. They set free from good relationship, and they just think about what they want. They can be very difficult as colleagues, let’s say, nonconformist. I’ve been meeting a few ones, and these people think outside of the box all the time. So you have to grasp and find out, understand what they were thinking about.
I have to say I made a few. It’s not easy to work with them because you’re under the impression of being with somebody from another planet. But at the same time, at the same time, it helps a lot when you’re tackling regular issues of operational issues and so on because their ability to think outside of the box makes you realize, makes you see things with different angles and other perspectives.
Self-qualified imposter when you have the imposter syndrome, well, I don’t need to explain that. This is very, very known. Opportunists, this is another type of individualist that you see in organization that they see the organization like kind of a journey of issues and challenges and chats and so on. They don’t think organizationally, if I can say that. So when you have colleagues like that, they’re not very reliable. But you have to work with them, so you have to keep that in mind. The last one is a survivor syndrome that I already described to. Yes, I see them a lot. Of course, this is – again, I simplified just to explain it in the book.
From time to time you find people with two syndromes or three syndromes. Then you have to, as a coach, help them into becoming conscious of that, taking a step back, and understanding that they are part of the system, and that they can behave differently in the system. They can see the system differently. That can take a while. But at least the coaching is very good about that because it helps to get the issue out of you and put it on the table. Discuss it with somebody neutral, the coach. Then objectify the issue, and then make the issue disappear.
[00:23:39] RT: Okay. So I wanted to segue then to something you said at the very beginning about why you wrote the book, which was that not everybody can have that thinking partner of a coach that can help them, get it out of them and on the table, and work with it, and then make a plan to take actions.
So let’s talk a little bit about if I’m a manager, my organization is not going to pay for a coach. I don’t have necessarily the resources perhaps to pay for a coach. But I’m struggling with one or two or three or four of these syndromes, and I want to do a good job. So I happen to find your book. How would I go about trying to identify what syndromes might be top of mind for me? What would I do about it? How would I develop the strategy to get better, given that? How do I do that using your book?
[00:24:35] CM: Okay. So syndromes are like diagnosis, let’s say. Then it’s not coaching or professional development. Personal development into a leadership role is not like taking a pill to cure a disease. It’s a bit different. It’s about becoming conscious of some issues and context, as I said, and finding the right tools for addressing the needs and the requirements and changing and so on. So it’s a process rather than just taking appeal. So it’s more about finding better understanding. What are the stakes? What are the challenges?
Then into the book, depending on the challenge you have identified, there’s eight different chapters that include tools. You can pick up the right chapter of interest for you and the tool of interest for you. So it’s like playing with Lego, basically. Identifying the syndrome is not mandatory. If you have identified the syndrome or a few syndromes that you’re living with, just thinking or finding out that, “Okay. Oh, maybe I’m living into that.” Just becoming conscious of that is already the first step.
Then what kind of exercises or what kind of concepts you will need is a different process. Okay. I cannot say I have the survivor syndrome. Then use this or this tool. But if you have the survivor syndrome, for example, just, okay, understanding that this is just a syndrome. Already decrease it. Then what is your situation? Are you beginning a new job? Or are you ending your job cycle and maybe thinking about the next job? Are you getting a new team? Are you experiencing a very political organization or a relationship or issue with the people who are staying who have not been fired, for example? Or do you need –
In the survivor syndrome, quite often, you will have to, of course, motivate yourself. But you will have to motivate your team members. So there’s all these issue you have. There’s tools and/or exercises or a concept that you can read for them. So it’s rather finding into the table of contents what makes sense for you.
[00:27:22] RT: You say – just to give fair warning, I guess, for people who might take up some of your counsel in the book. You have this very provocative line that says, “It’s unlikely that organizations will become a haven for middle managers anytime soon.” So I’m listening to this podcast on The Middle Manager, and I’m saying, “Oh, my gosh. I’m just in the wrong place to start with.” Because it looks like it’s just going to be – it’s hard now and it’s going to stay hard.
That may be part of the reality. But I think you’re identifying a condition that’s been true for a long time. Being a manager in an organization is a very challenging job. But you’re the coach, and you’ve got managers listening here. So what’s some basic moves they can make if you were coaching them that get them started in building themselves to be more capable in their work as a manager? What do you know about – because you’ve been a manager for a long time. You made some mistakes. We’re going to get to that in a second here. But what advice do you have as a coach to them about start here, do this, do that, if that’s even applicable in the context of where they’re at now?
[00:28:37] CM: This is the tough question that is always hard for a coach. What is the one advice that fits all?
[00:28:45] RT: Let’s say it fits 20% of the people. Let’s not go for all. Let’s just take a cut [inaudible 00:28:50] managers.
[00:28:52] CM: Okay. One idea that I got from the systemics that to me changes a lot of things for a lot of people is the idea that everybody is right personally. That means that this is not I’m right, you’re wrong. Or you’re right, I’m wrong. Or he is right, and we are wrong. It’s everybody is right personally. The understanding that the diversity does not mean right or wrong, but rather richness and complexity and agility and things like that is very important.
I have to say that most of the coaching mission start was a discussion of that type. That I am in the organization, the organization has made that decision or is deploying that strategy, and I have this view who’s right, who’s wrong. The who’s right, who’s wrong discussion goes with how can I make them see I’m right? Or how – I don’t understand what they are saying to me. If they are right, I am wrong. I don’t understand how to change. You need to get out of that discussion because that discussion leads to nowhere.
[00:30:16] RT: How would you advise them to get out of that discussion? What’s some moves that they can make? In the [inaudible 00:30:22] of being able to work with you, what moves can they make to begin to get out of that?
[00:30:28] CM: You have [inaudible 00:30:29]. It’s into the coaching. So, okay, let’s say in a coaching, I would say, okay, what is hot on your plate today? What is the issue we had yesterday or the day before you would like to talk about? We will go into that discussion and capture the right-wrong thinking, and go into the what if everybody was right. So go into that. That need to be with a coach.
If you’re on your own, in front of you paper, what I would encourage you is an exercise that is very, very simple, which would be to detail. You have the right-wrong situation or right-wrong people or whatever. Then go into detailing. Let’s say you have five reason for why it’s right. Then find out for each of the reason, situation, or issue where it can be right or wrong. That helps, and there are different exercises in the book like that that help to smooth a new way of thinking, and get out of the dichotomy thinking, and go into the understanding that any kind of situation is lots of shades of gray, and that you have to live with them, basically.
Go into maybe rationalizing pros and cons. Into the pros, each pro has pros and cons and so on and so forth. When you granularize that good, bad, pro, cons, and right, wrong, you will see that it’s only shades of gray everywhere. I’m not sure I’m clear.
[00:32:22] RT: I think you are. Part of what I hear you saying here is I think that independent of the particular syndrome or condition or rightness that may be up for that moment or hot on the plate, as you said in a particular coaching session, is to what extent is the manager practicing some degree of a practice of self-reflection? On a regular basis, whether it’s going great or whether it’s going poorly or everywhere in between, what’s my practice of self-reflection?
Because I think what I hear you say is with that practice, and I agree with you, I’m with you on this, writing is – it’s not the same. It’s better and more useful than thinking while I’m driving or something like that, in part because you kind of leave fingerprints or footprints. If you read your reflections over time that you’ve written, you’ll start to see themes generated in your own hand, meaning it’s hard to argue with that data because it’s my data. I put it on the paper. Here, it shows up again and again and again.
My experience is that just that practice of reflecting, and sometimes it starts out at just complaining, whining, and crying about life in the world, right?
[00:33:35] CM: Exactly, exactly. But it’s very good to put it on paper. It goes out of you. So it’s very good to put it on paper. Definitely, yes.
[00:33:43] RT: Yes, yes. Okay. All right, so you were a middle manager. I asked this question to pretty much everybody on the podcast. So we tend to learn more from our leadership and management failures than we do our successes. They stick with us. They hang around. They leave a mark. So when you look back on your career, what’s one or two experiences you had that didn’t go well for you as a manager and a leader? Briefly, what was it, and what did you learn from it that stayed with you?
[00:34:13] CM: Well, it happened to me one time. Yes, I still remember it and how upset I was. So I was at that time in AT&T. I was a Product Management Director for Europe, and I had a team of 10 people managing some projects. So roughly 150 people were working on this project. I was from time to time invited in the executive committee, European executive committee, but not all the time. So I was not a permanent member.
One time, I was not in. I was called afterwards by three different people. One who was in and two, depending on people who were in that committee, who me that, “Three told me your name was mentioned as the responsible of the failure of this strategy.” I said, “What? But I was not even involved in that strategy.” It made me very upset. I feel betrayed, and I felt that my own vice president did not support me because I was sad and remained quiet. I was so upset about that, and it took me time.
Even though that the people were telling me, “Just calm down. This is just political game, and there has been some issues with this strategy that, frankly, you were not involved. So you might not be the responsible. But the people, maybe the responsible were around the table.” It took me time just to understand that this was not at all about me. It was about this group of people being polite to each other. So they needed to find a scapegoat that was outside of the room, just for everybody to officially agree that it was okay, and it will be under control. They were all not the responsible ones, where everybody knew that the responsible were around the table.
I have to say that. It made me very upset because I felt pointed as the responsible for issues, and I had no power just to solve this issue. I was not even responsible. But at the same time, the learning was that from time to time, it’s not about solving problem. It’s about maintaining relationships. This was not nice even. But from time to time, the eagle needs to be protected. Or I don’t know. I don’t know. Just at least it made me understand that. What he said is not always what is the reality. You asked me about failure or things like that. But the failure in that case was me becoming very upset for a few days. After I understood that I – yes. Now, it seems like that makes me upset but not very long.
[00:37:23] RT: So as we come to towards the end here, what have I not asked you that I should have asked you? Or that I should be asking you?
[00:37:32] CM: People who read my book, what they think. I think you did not. You did not ask me that. There’s two feedback I’d like to bring you that made me very happy. Because when you’re writing things, of course, you’re writing for somebody. But you never know what people will think when they will read it. I had two feedbacks that really made me happy.
One of my customer got the book, and he told me, “I’ve been reading from the beginning to the end.” I was saying that it’s rather a book where you pick up whatever tool you want, depending on the circumstances. He told me, “Yes, yes, yes. But now, I know everything that is inside, and now I will be able to pick up what is right for me. So I will read a second time a few paragraphs or chapters.” That made me really, really happy because I never thought that it would be done like that.
The other very – it’s a recent one. When I published – before publishing the English version, I published a French version. One of the reader of the French version recently was on a webinar. He was telling because he wrote that in the chat. So he told, “I would highly recommend The Middle Manager’s Survival Guide, which helped me grow and be recognized, then promoted to the director level.”
So when you have this kind of feedback, then this is because you’ve been writing at least a few lines that are accurate and useful. So, yes, I wanted to thank them. I would like to thank them. They will recognize themselves. I’d like to thank them for this wonderful feedback.
[00:39:18] RT: Undoubtedly, there’s people out there who are having similar experiences you don’t even know about, so well done. All right, so as we come to the end here, what’s ahead for you? Now that you’ve got a book out, and you’re doing your work, what do you want to, in the next few years, accomplish in your work, in your life? Yes, let’s leave it at that. What do you want to accomplish?
[00:39:43] CM: More. I have so much more to do. I’m thinking about two areas on the writing side about all that artificial intelligence is going to change into our life and management life. So I have a lot of thinking about that. The other theme is about engaging people. How do you do as a leader, as a middle manager, when you have people in your team that are not motivated, not engaged? It’s not about forcing, but how do you open the door for them to become engaged and motivated for good reasons? So there are the two themes I’m thinking about for at least a few articles and maybe a next book.
From the personal viewpoints, I had the project of going around the globe by train, going east, not west. East, east, east. I’m coming back to where I am in France. This has been made difficult with the COVID and even more with the war in Ukraine and everything that is happening there. So it’s postponed, but it’s still there. I have more time to think about it and to plan it.
[00:41:00] RT: Is it safe for us to assume that part of what’s ahead for you is to figure out how you can spoil three grandchildren?
[00:41:08] CM: Yes, different – yes, different topic, different topic I had to tell.
[00:41:12] RT: Right, right. Okay. So, Cecile, the book is called The Middle Manager’s Survival Guide. Where can people find this book?
[00:41:19] CM: It’s on Amazons, all Amazon, amazon.com, .co, .uk, .fr, .de. All Amazons
[00:41:27] RT: Amazon in the world. You can find it anywhere, and you can get Amazon. Okay. Hey, listen. Thank you for coming into the podcast; 10,000 Swamp Leaders. Thank you for sharing your insights. In the show notes for people, so they know there will be a link to your book, also a link to your LinkedIn page and any other links you want to send across to me that we can attach there, so people can find you and find your work. So thanks, ma’am, for being with us here. It was fun.
[00:41:56] CM: Thanks to you and for your longtime friendship, insights also. You’re in the list of people I did thank because even though we didn’t specifically speak about the book contents during the process of writing, I have to say that a few of your advice are with me since a long time. So thanks to you.
[00:42:19] RT: It’s good to be a partner with you. Okay, thank you much.
[00:42:23] CM: Thank you.
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