Eka Gigauri comes to the swamp to share her twenty year trek to establish transparency, accountability and social integrity in her country of Georgia. Her story begins with the Rose Revolution in Georgia in 2003 when the country separated from the Soviet Union. Today Eka is the Executive Director of Transparency International’s county office in Georgia. She leads a team committed to rooting out systems and networks of corruption inside her beloved country. Eka shares her thoughts and approach to being courageous and supporting her team while sticking with the fundamental work of building a Georgia for the common good.
[00:00:06] ANNOUNCER: You are listening to 10,000 Swamp Leaders, leadership conversations that explore adapting and thriving in a complex world with Rick Torseth and guests.
[00:00:20] RT: Hi, everybody. This is Rick Torseth, and this is 10,000 Swap Leaders. This is the podcast where we talk to people who have made a decision to raise their hand and lead in some very complex and challenging situations in the world.
Today is no exception to that guideline. Today, my guest is Eka Gigauri, who is the Executive Director of Transparency International for the Democratic Republic of Georgia. And we’re going to get into what Transparency International does because it’s very important work. But first, I’m going to get Eka, you, into this conversation. First of all, welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:59] EG: Thank you.
[00:00:59] RT: And just take some time to share with people who you are and what you want them to know about you as a starting point for our conversation.
[00:01:06] EG: I’m Eka. I’m the anti-corruption activist. I’m the person who loves my country. So, Georgia. And who tries her best to fight corruption in this country. Defend the rights of the people of this country. And make sure that these people will live in a better country. That’s how I can explain what I’m doing here. First of all, I care about the country and the people of this country. And this is very important in my work.
[00:01:41] RT: Okay. Share with people a little about the work of Transparency International. Because it’s quite a large organization and has locations in a lot of places besides Georgia. What is the organization’s purpose and mission? And maybe help connect that to the work you’re doing specifically in Georgia.
[00:01:59] EG: Transparency International is the global movement. We have the national chapters in around 100 countries. I am heading the national chapter in Georgia. I’m also with the international Board of Transparency International there. I’m also the member of the governance committee and the ethics committee.
What precisely we do in Georgia is fighting corruption. Yeah, we look at the conflicts of interests of the governmental officials. We look at the state procurement. We look at the selective application of laws in different situations. We look how effective different institutions in Georgia are.
We also try to educate people about the issue of corruption because many people don’t know what kind of corruption exists and how they can fight corruption. We also monitor the elections in Georgia and looking at the cases when the ruling parties are abusing the state resources during the elections. And we, of course, help and defend the journalists and the media groups here in Georgia because they are our main partners here. Because they also investigate corruption and they inform people about different corruption cases.
[00:03:20] RT: Okay. I want to come back to some of the items on that list and what it is that Transparency International and you actually are doing in the context of some of those specific things. But before that, would you share with people a little bit about your background and how you came to end up being the Transparency International and doing the work you’re doing? Because you didn’t you didn’t start out this way. You came from some place and you got into this because it was relevant to you. So what’s your background that brought you to Transparency?
[00:03:52] EG: First, about my education. I graduated from Tbilisi State University studying the political science there. Then I made the master’s degree in business administration. I majored in marketing. And then, after that, I made the master’s degree in international law in the Netherlands.
At the same time, I have like really broad and various work experience. I worked for the private sector in the consulting area dealing in the area of marketing definitely. And then, also, I worked for the government for sometimes in the foreign affairs field. My special experience working for the government is related to the anti-corruption reforms when I was the Deputy Head of Border Police of Georgia. It is the time when the young professionals took over the power. So we had the Rose Revolution here in Georgia. And at that time, the government has decided to implement very effective anti-corrupting forms.
And actually, as a result of these reforms in several months’ time, we didn’t have petty corruption. We have eradicated the petty corruption in Georgia. I was dealing with such reforms in the border police. And also, I’m dealing there with the foreign affairs issues.
After that, I left the government and then joined the Transparency International. And there also, as I said, we are very active in initiating the entire corruption reforms but also monitoring the activities of the government.
One thing that I can say is that, in each and every place where I worked, I actually was serving the people of my country. Because as I said again, I’m the patriot of my country and I am doing everything that I can for the people of my country to live in a better country.
[00:05:51] RT: This is part of the reason I wanted to have you on the podcast. I’m interested in where did this start for you in your life? The patriotism? The care for country? I mean, everybody has an opportunity to travel that road. Not everybody does. Where’d this start early in your life someplace? Or how did you get going and end up thinking, “Yeah, this is the place I need to spend my time in energy.”
[00:06:17] EG: I am the person who was born in Soviet Union, right? And I really remember when there was this movement which was requesting from the Soviet government the independence of Georgia. And I was looking at these people, how brave they were. At that time, it was like really impossible to imagine that at some point the Soviet Union will collapse.
And so, that’s why, for me, it was really special fight. And as a child even in the school, there were instances when I was expressing my opinion. I remember the school teach teachers who were very afraid of someone hearing this. And they were like so much afraid. And I had this special conversation with them and where they were asking me not to talk about such issues and all this. But then, we got the independence. Georgia became the independent state. But we faced many challenges at that time. And apparently, the poverty was one of the biggest challenge and also corruption.
And then, at some point after the Rose Revolution in 2003, I was their young professional working for the private sector, as I said, dealing with the marketing issues. And I got the opportunity to work for the country, for the government. And we were all of us like this. You know, these young people thinking that now we have the chance. Now it’s the window of opportunity. We should change everything in this country. We should change the mentality, the Soviet mentality in this country. We should change the way how the government rules. We should eradicate corruption here. We should make sure that people understand what is to live in the democratic society. That they have rights. That they should request from the government what they think is better for themselves, for the country.
This was kind of the mood that all of us had. And from the moment you are involved in building of the state and you see that there are achievements, and it’s possible to have the achievement in a very short period of time, you become so much attached to that. You care about everything. Not only about, like, for me in my case. Not only about the border police and how the border policemen we’re dressed or behaving at every border checkpoint. But you cared about everything really.
Like, what’s going on in other parts of the country? How other ministries and services are working? And how people perceive this? Because sometimes, for some people, it was not really very easy to get used to the new reality, right? And that’s like how it started. And even now, I’m always asking the people who are working for Transparency International of Georgia that first thing that you should care about is your country. You don’t do anything for the only purposes of the project and because some donors are funding us and all this. You do this because you want to make your country better.
And it does not matter where you work. Either you are like – it does not matter you are the doctor, or you are the NGO representative, or you are architect, or someone. It doesn’t matter. You always should have in your head that this is why you are doing these things.
[00:09:47] RT: I think you’re answering this question. But I just want to amplify it. I was just noticing in Transparency International’s description of the work, it says that we focus on issues of the greatest impact on people’s lives and hold the powerful to account for the common good. And I highlighted that. And I think you’re speaking to the common good when you think about the country. Define that a little bit. What is the common good of Georgia today after all the work that you’ve done from breaking with the Soviet Union to today? When you look ahead standing on what you’ve accomplished so far, what is the common good that needs to be dealt with so that there’s more of the good stuff that you’re trying to build in this country?
[00:10:32] EG: Yeah, it’s a difficult question. I think that what this country needs and the people need is, generally, better life. And the better life for them is to have opportunity. The opportunity to develop. To get the high-quality education. To get the access to the public services and the medical services for instance. For the youth to have the opportunity to find the job. To have the opportunity to have the competitive environment, right? Because it’s not always the case here.
Also, general for the people to have the opportunity to vote freely during the elections. To elect those who they like and for their voices to have the impact, you know? And that’s also not the case in Georgia.
And so, I think, generally, for the people to be heard and for the politicians to be accountable to the people. Because sometimes it’s politicians. And this is not something new. I mean, I would say that in many countries it happens. But sometimes these politicians are so good. They say that, “Okay, from the moment I’ll be in the government, I’ll do this and that.” But from the moment, they get these positions in the government then they forget whatever they have promised. And it makes them more corrupt, I would say. So, that’s why –
[00:12:04] RT: I want you to talk a little bit about your work. You and I met in a program in early December, I believe, through the Hague Academy, which is called the MATRA Rule of Law. And you remember pretty well, I’m sure, this is a program designed for government leaders in former Soviet countries, including Georgia. And it had five modules. Each module featured a virtue of leadership. And your topic was the virtue of courage in the five that were presented.
And it struck me how critical that virtue is. Of course, it’s hard to argue that any of those virtues are critical. Tell us a little bit about how courage has been a factor for you, and how it’s been tested and how you use it when you’re choosing to do the work you do. Because it also seems to me that there is some risk that you might face in your work when you’re taking on people who have high power and may have some investment in some kind of corrupt ways of doing business. For people who are listening, a lot of people stop employing this, “Ah! That scares me. I can’t do that.” They’re stuck. They’re paralyzed. What do you know about courage? And how do you pull from it when you have to do difficult work?
[00:13:24] EG: I had different situations when I needed courage, right? The first one, when I worked for the border police. And as I said, I had to change the culture. I had to change the mindset of people, right? Who thought at the time that the corruption is the part of our culture? That apparently, it’s the cultural thing in Georgia. That when you are holding this high position, you should help all your relatives and find the jobs for them and avoiding the competitions and all such things.
Also, that if you provide the person with the service, which is like their right to get such service from the government, right? Then you have to pay money for this and give bribes. Or like somehow – Or buy the gift for this person, right? That was kind of the understanding of the corruption that it’s impossible to eradicate it because it’s the part of the culture.
But apparently, there were individuals including me who said that it’s not like this. And now, we should sit down and we should think how to deal with the issues in a different way. And you should understand that, “Okay, if you are my relative, for instance, it does not mean that I will find a job for your child.”
And that was very difficult apparently. Including with my family members. And I talked about this that I had this very serious conversation with my own father saying that, “Don’t call me anymore. There is this open competition. If someone wants to find the job, they can participate if the guy is good so he or she will be recruited.”
[00:15:05] RT: Hold on a second. How did your father take that conversation?
[00:15:08] EG: We did not talk for one week. He was like, “Oh! You are Georgian. And now you have different approaches. What’s that? And you know this cousin. Our cousin’s son or whatever. He’s a brilliant guy.” I said, “Yes. Okay. He’s a brilliant guy. There is this information on our webpage. He can fill this application. There is this test that he should pass and go through the interview and all this. And so, there will be people who will be looking at him and whatever. If it’s good, no problem. If it’s bad, does not matter. He’s my cousin’s son or something.”
I’m sure it was the case with many people and many officials like me. I’m sure. But for some of my relatives, it was not even understandable. Maybe they were angry on me. I don’t know. But I think that if I would make even one exception, it would not work. It was very important. Very important to stick to the initial plan.
And I needed courage for this. I needed courage to explain this to those who worked for the agency, to the relatives, to general population and the public. It was of course very difficult. And make sure that they are not angry on you. Make sure that they think that it is right. Because you need – in such painful reforms, you need the support from the public. This is for sure.
And of course, initially, you think that, “Yeah, maybe there will be part of the population which will never understand, who will never understand that it was good. It’s okay.” But at least you have to try to explain to the wider public why you are doing this.
And then the second situation when I needed courage and now I’m in the process, and I am in this situation I would say, is when you speak about the corruption cases where the high officials are involved. And you know that they have huge resources. They have money. They have access to the pro-government media. And that’s the case in Georgia. They can start any kind of campaign against you. And this is what they are doing now. They are not only campaigning against the Transparency International Georgia, but against me personally. And this is what’s happening I would say every day. And I understand why it’s happening, right? I know why it’s happening. Because it’s so painful for them to suddenly see our report where we talk about the Russian connections of our founder of our ruling party. Who apparently has the businesses in Russia and like through his offshore companies.
And I can imagine that they were shocked when it was published. Because now especially when there is a war in Ukraine, and now when the whole world is fighting against the oligarchs trying to find their kind of connections with the Russian money and the Putin’s circle. It was very painful for them.
And I know why it’s happening. And I know that maybe it’s a little bit even dangerous when it comes to the personal security. But again, I think that when I started working for TI, I knew what is my fight. And I knew that there will be circumstances and situations when there might be some difficulties for me. But again, from the moment you think that you do this for your country and people, it gives you more courage.
[00:19:02] RT: You mentioned a little bit ago, you said the word stamina. And as I’m listening to you talk about this situation that’s emerging and the comments that are coming to Transparency International and to you personally, the question I have is – So, this is probably a long process. For people out there listening, how do you take care of yourself when you’re in this kind of process that you know is going to be long? It’s going to be challenging? It’s going to be personal from some time-to-time. And as you said, maybe at times, safety and security could be a factor. How do you take care of yourself? Hold yourself steady personally in the face of that kind of constant get up and go to work condition?
[00:19:49] EG: Yeah. I wouldn’t say that it’s easy to do especially for the person who deals with the organization, right? Or who’s the leader of the organization. Because from the moment, you as a director come to the office and say something like where people can feel that you are afraid of something. It’s not good. It’s not good.
I mean, the team should know that you are strong, that you know what you are doing, that you look at this as a crisis. Of course, you evaluate the situation as a crisis. But you are ready to see it, to plan, to deal with it. You should not be emotional, of course. Because when the emotions come, you might make the wrong decision. It’s okay. I might be angry on them on some statements because they call you. At this moment now, we are in the situation when the government decided to adopt the so-called foreign agents law, which is like, in Russia, when they adopted this. And then suddenly all the critical medias and angels became the foreign agents. That might be the kind of the reality in Georgia and the nearest future.
But I think that this is – and you might be angry, right? But you should not follow your your emotions because you should calm down. And it’s better to take decision in a more calm way. Just analyzing the situation. Thinking about the pros and cons and then do this.
But then, definitely, when you’re alone, you have to deal with your psychological condition, right? Because it’s very tiring. For me, it’s better either to watch something. I don’t know. Something, documentary or something which is not related to Georgia maybe just to change a little bit. Or maybe read the book, which also helps.
Definitely, if you need it, you can talk with a friend. I don’t know. It helps also. There is no need to have everything inside and not to share it with anybody. That’s not the right thing. It’s better to really express whatever you think with some other people or find something, some other things to do. And there is nothing wrong with this. I would say you are still strong, you know?
[00:22:30] RT: Yeah. You’re saying you need to have a process to process your experiences so that you’re not building on top of stuff that hasn’t been handled emotionally, or mentally, or some stuff for you. I’m also struck by what you said. Talk a little bit about coming into the office and all the eyes of the organization are on you when something like these breaks. And they’re checking to see what your temperature is so to speak. What your mood is? How are you reacting? How do you keep people moving in your organization? Mobilized, focused when difficult stuff is happening? And you know that you need the team, the organization, working together. How do you take care of their mood and morale when it gets difficult?
[00:23:18] EG: From one side, of course, you have all the system in place. And they know this, right? You have this crisis management action plan and they are aware of it, right? We have all the time, the permanent staff meetings, where we share the information amongst each other, right?
Just recently, every year, we have this 360-degree evaluation when we talk, we meet, and I meet each and every employee that works for TI Georgia. This is very important for them to find the platforms and opportunities to share their thoughts with me. This is very important.
But at the same time, also, you have to get the attacks as a leader. And they understand this, that I’m the leader and I’m getting all the attacks. When there is something, I’m going to the media, I’m talking to them. And you have to do this also in a very calm way, right? You have to smile. If it’s appropriate and you have to be not nervous, really calm and talking to the point and all this kind of things.
They see that it’s not that the only thing that I need from them just to continue the regular things. Because I will be there all the time getting the attacks. And for them, how they can help me is just to continue whatever they are doing in a calm way without really emotional approach to different things. Of course, they care about everything that’s going on. Of course, they read the comments that are shared in Facebook and definitely in some other social media platforms. It’s not that they don’t care or they don’t have the emotional attachment to this. It’s not like this.
But definitely, what they feel is that they can always share with me what they think about this, what they feel about this. And they feel that I will get the attacks. But I will be always there. And there were instances when some others, some other members of my team, were attacked. But I defended them so they know that it does not matter what will happen. Our director is there there and she will deal with this.
[00:25:41] RT: It strikes me that part of what you’re saying here is if we’re going to go out into the streets of Tbilisi in Georgia and state that we’re from Transparency International, we need to be transparent as best we can inside the walls of the organization because that builds our capacity to authentically do that outside. Is that fair to say?
[00:26:02] EG: Yes, of course. Of course. And if we want for the people to support our work, the internal communication also matters. You have to communicate effectively inside of your team for your team to understand why and what you are doing. Then you will be more successful in your communication with the outside world.
[00:26:25] RT: Okay. Let’s talk a little tactics and strategies here if you don’t mind? Because you mentioned this pretty early in our conversation. It’s my view that leading is a choice in an activity. It’s not always a role. Meaning that you have certain authority as the Director of Transparency International Georgia. Within that, there’s all sorts of opportunities to actually lead. And sometimes you may do it. Sometimes you may not do it. But you’re choosing that.
Therefore, what do you know now about how you foster and sustain a movement of change in your country for the common good? I mean, what are the mechanics for you? What are the approaches you use to get people on board and moving in the direction that’s in the best interest of the country and holding them there in that place until you finish the work that you’re trying to do?
[00:27:16] EG: You mean people, like the general public?
[00:27:18] RT: Yeah, the public. Yeah, it sounds like the work that you do right now internally is keeping them focused on the work so that you’re all moving in a coordinated fashion. How do you take that same sort of activity out into the world and keep people who don’t have a vested interest in Transparency International? They’re not employees. They’re going about their life. But they also want the country to be better. How do you foster getting people to join this work, this effort of a common good for the republic?
[00:27:47] EG: Yes. The problem also here is that we have the huge disinformation in – It’s Russian disinformation. But also, this information campaigns backed by the government. I would say that it’s very difficult to explain to the general public what’s really good for the country. Take into consideration that we have the polarization here. And apparently, the public is divided and fragmented.
There is this huge kind of aggression, aggression between different groups, you know? And the political parties also try to split the society. And sometimes we have these discussions that does not matter. They are not important at all. But the whole public might talk about this for several days. And this is also kind of the aim of the government to shift the attention from the important issues to non-important ones.
From outside, I think what we try to do is to be consistent. They see every time we talk about the issues. And there are maybe not many issues. But how we articulate the message. And what are the issues we are focusing on? For them, it should be clear when we are speaking about the problems. What are the situations?
And this is very important to do not to have mixed messages. Have one message focused on like two or three issues. And be consistent. And the public actually remember that now we have particular government. But we were also active with the previous administration, right? And there, also, we raised the same issues and we were criticizing the previous administration for the same problems, right?
And this is very important to show to the public that you are very much consistent. And for you, apparently, only the people and the situation in the country matters. And not – Like, at the end of the day, it does not matter what is the name of the ruling party, right? It’s the interest of the country. Interest of the people. And we come out from this issue and not who is in the government and we like this government better than that one.
[00:30:20] RT: Okay. I want to shift a little bit to your own experiences here. Because you and I were talking before we started recording and I was explaining that part of the purpose here is to provide thoughts and ideas for people who are a little further behind us on this leadership journey. And if they could pick up a few things from people that are on the podcast, they could develop themselves maybe a little quicker.
In this work of leading – it’s the context now. In the work of leading, what has surprised you about yourself in terms of being effective as a leader? What do you go, “Really? That’s me?” What surprises you about yourself when you do this work?
[00:30:58] EG: Oh, when we had war with Russia. And we had this – it was the crisis situation, right? And so, I had never had the experience dealing with the war. And suddenly, I had to deal with – it’s in 2008. I had to deal with our personnel who was sent to this battlefield. And I had to deal with the supply, the food supply for them.
And then, I was dealing with others who were in the office who were in different bases around to the country. And begging them, telling them what to do. I mean, this was like really – then when it was over, I was thinking that how I dealt with such crisis? And apparently, I can manage myself to like really calm down to focus on the issue. To make sure that people around me are not nervous. Because many of them are panicking and are nervous. And show the example to them how you should deal with the issue. That was like really biggest surprise for myself. I would never imagine that I could deal with such crisis.
[00:32:25] RT: That kind of cool, calm and collected on the exterior under pressure, even if inside it’s a little jumpy? Let’s flip it then. I often think that we learn more from our leadership failures than we do our successes. If you don’t mind, do you have one or two failures or non-successes as a leader that stick with you that you’ve learned from? And what have you learned from it?
[00:32:50] EG: Yes. Of course, I’m not perfect, right? That’s not who I am. Maybe there were instances when I was somehow in the moment when I was very successful. And whatever I predicted happened. And I was right. Everyone could acknowledge that everything that I did was actually right. And then you think that you are so perfect, you know? And you don’t need others telling you something. What to do in the future? Or how to correct things. And it happens with everyone. And there were instances when it happened to me as well. And I was wrong.
For me, the lesson that I learned that, I mean, maybe you can predict everything well and maybe you are good in something. But it’s always you should remember that you should listen to the people, especially those who have a different opinion, and it will help.
The success is important. The ambitions – It’s good that you have the ambitions to reach more and to do more and all this. But you should always think that you might make the mistake. And maybe you can avoid this mistake if you listen to the people who don’t think like you do.
[00:34:17] RT: We’re going to release this podcast in a few days. We’ll spread it around the world as best we can. And it probably includes some people inside your country hopefully. What advice do you have for people who are on this journey for leading that you could pass on to them about what it takes to become effective at the work of leading? Drawing on your past, your successes, your knowledge, what you’ve seen other people do that – whatever it is. What counsel do you have for people that could help them focus on and develop more of the craft of leading?
[00:34:52] EG: I would say, first, I would start with the education, right? I was studying. When you are a student, you enter the university. But then I think that, in my case, I was thinking what I really need. You know, what are the skills, or the information, or the knowledge that I will need in my future work? Because I started – when I was a student, I was interning different places in the Parliament of Georgia. Different ministries and all this. And then at some point, I thought that, “Okay, this is what I need in order to be more effective.
For instance, at some point, I shift my – the specialty from the foreign affairs and the international relations faculty and this field. And I thought that, “Okay, now I need more skills in management. It’s better to have this master’s. Make master’s degree in management and marketing because it’s about the communication with the public and all this.”
And then when I made this degree in international law, I also was thinking that, “Okay, now I need – because I’m in the foreign affairs field, so I need this a little bit more knowledge in international law.” And I was focusing on the security studies as well because I was dealing with the border police and all this. And yeah. This is where I think that I was successful as well.
And also, when studying in the university, of course I’m not encouraging people not to study well. But I think that you should really spend more time on this subject. Because sometimes when you study, some subjects might not be like really necessary. It’s better to spend more time on those subjects, which you will use in practice. That’s very important.That you will need in practice. Better to spend more time studying this than some others. And it’s not necessary to have A’s or in the highest degrees in everything. It’s better to really understand what you are studying and how you will use it in the practice.
[00:37:04] RT: Why in the world did you tell me that when I was in university? I could have used that information myself. Thank you.
[00:37:13] EG: Yes. When you get this experience, when the person gets the experience from different workplaces and jobs. Again, it’s important, whatever you read or you learn during your work in different places, to use it. Really use it. I mean you should use this experience in your future work. It’s important to – It’s not the problem to make the mistakes. It’s important when you made the mistake and you learned the lesson, you use it in the future.
[00:37:48] RT: In the future.
[00:37:48] EG: Always remember. Always remember that everything that you learn in your previous job, you should use in your future job, and especially when it comes to the mistakes.
[00:38:01] RT: I don’t know if it’s this way for you. But when I make a mistake, whether I learn from it or not, especially if I don’t, life has a way of wanting to give me another shot at learning that lesson. If I’m willing to learn from the mistake, I can handle that next shot a little better, I think.
Coming to our end of our conversation here, what have I not asked you that I should be asking you?
[00:38:24] EG: Yeah. What is next for me? Maybe –
[00:38:29] RT: Yeah, what is next for you? What is next?
[00:38:32] EG: Yes, sometimes – and here, actually, I’m at the crossroad now I would say. Because from one side, we have the challenge here. There is a huge fight coming because we have this huge backslide in Georgia. Democratic backsliding in Georgia. And everyone should unite it. And we should fight back. And again, that’s for the purposes to make this country better and all this.
At the same time, might consider to like really focus on international fight against corruption. I’m doing this being in the international board of TI. But maybe to do this more. And so, this is what I’m thinking about now. What to do? Because sometimes I think that I could do more internationally. Maybe I should focus on other countries as well because there are also people suffering. And there are governments who are intimidating their own nations and people, right? And maybe to focus on this. Yeah. Again, I’m at the crossroad. I don’t know what will be my decision. But this is what I’m thinking about.
[00:39:54] RT: If you don’t mind, I just like to play with this a little bit even though I thought we might be coming – And it’s okay if you don’t know here. But at this crossroads metaphor I think is relevant to lots of people. We come to crossroads frequently in our life. What’s your strategy for entering into a crossroads? How do you go about sorting, and figuring and moving?
[00:40:17] EG: You know, I’m always choosing the way. Not the easiest one maybe. But I’m always thinking, on this particular position and in this situation, whether my hard work will have impact or not. And this is how I take such decisions. Of course, everything matters. I mean, we are the human beings, right? The salary matters. The better working conditions matter. Everything matters. Of course. Of course.
But I think that, for me personally, it’s important also to have the job which will have the impact on the situation in the country, on the lives of the people. Because for me, it’s important to do something important.
[00:41:09] RT: All right. I’m going to let everybody know that we will put the link to Transparency International in the show notes, your LinkedIn profile. There may be some other links that we’ll collect and put in the show notes before we’re done. People might be wondering out there how they might be able to help Transparency International. Do you have any thoughts on that? Is that a possibility that people could be of some service to the larger organization?
[00:41:35] EG: Of course, we would love to have the people who support us in different ways. Like, starting with sharing our information and raising the issues that we are raising and ending with their resources. Like, helping as a volunteer or as an expert. Definitely, we will also appreciate the financial support. But for us, I think the people’s resources, when they’re raising our issues or helping us with their expertise, it is more important I would say. Because we are looking for different opinions and different expertise around the world.
[00:42:15] RT: Okay. Eka Gigauri, thank you so much for coming and joining us in this conversation. It’s been a pleasure. We will capture some of that stuff and put it in the show notes so people can follow on with that based on their suggestion. Thank you very much for being with me today.
[00:42:30] EG: Thank you for having me.
[00:42:32] RT: You’re welcome.
[00:42:35] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to 10,000 Swamp Leaders with Rick Torseth. Please take this moment and hit subscribe to follow more leadership swamp conversations.